068: Avoidance, Anxiety, and the Structure of Drift

0:08 SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Warriors Haven Podcast, the place where discipline meets purpose and everyday people become unstoppable. I'm your host, Jaisha Sutherland, a retired Army drill sergeant, single mom, and the founder of the Warriors Haven. Around here, we talk fitness, mindset, and the mission of building a stronger you, mentally, physically, and financially. Because this isn't just about the gym. It's about life, leadership, and living on your terms. So gear up, lock in, and let's step into the haven where warriors are made.

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1:38 SPEAKER_01: Now let's get into the episode.

1:45 SPEAKER_01: And I'm really excited about this episode. I have joining me today, Mr. Alex. And before we really dive in into this episode, let me kind of give you guys this warm welcome. So, Alex, welcome to the Warriors Haven podcast. I'm really glad you're here because I think this conversation is gonna hit home for a lot of people. And like you know, we have friends all over the world. And your work is really fascinating because it sits at an interesting intersection. You're a psychotherapist, and your approach incorporates cognitive behavioral therapy while also drawing from existential therapy, uh, psychodynamic work, solution-focused approaches, and other frameworks.

2:27 SPEAKER_01: Your work also focuses heavily on anxiety, depression, men's issues, purpose, identity, and meaningful change. But really, what caught my attention was the idea you brought forward, which was drift is the slow loss of direction that happens when a person keeps postponing the next honest action. And that is powerful. So before we get into the psychology of all of this, I want to start with the person behind the professional. So, Alex, take us back to your own story. You talk about experiencing a period of personal collapse in 2018 when your own life had drifted badly.

3:07 SPEAKER_01: What did drift look like for you before you actually recognized that it was as drift?

3:13 SPEAKER_00: So the biggest thing was I was in graduate school in 2016. I was getting ready for my last semester, and that's when I got hit in August with the testicular cancer diagnosis. And that at 26 just kind of rocked my world. My whole idea of, you know, mortality was like totally rocked. And I got lucky. I had surgery, I was totally clear, I didn't need radiation or anything, you know, thank God for that. But the weird thing was what happened afterwards was oh boy, I went through this whole thing, and now everybody's being extra nice to me.

3:44 SPEAKER_00: People are giving me these, you know, leniencies with a lot of stuff. And I started to give myself leniencies. The idea, uh, carpe diem became instead of seize the day to take action, it became maximize the amount of pleasure you can take in a day. And I took time off from school. I started drinking too much, I was eating way too much fast food, and slowly, slowly, slowly, things compounded until um a major relationship I was in for seven and a half years ended. I was back at my parents' house, uh, like 300 pounds, drinking too much, totally broke and uncertain about how I got there.

4:17 SPEAKER_00: Uh, one of the big things was realizing it wasn't one thing. It was this small, slow step of do what's comfortable, do what's easy, postpone the action you need to take until tomorrow. We'll do this at the right time, until it really got me to that spot in 2018 where I was like, how did I get here? And the more important thing was this isn't how my story has to end.

4:37 SPEAKER_01: Wow. Oh, wow. So I love that distinction because I think people imagine that being lost means a life looks chaotic. Um, but sometimes you're functioning, you're working, you're taking care of your responsibilities, and yet internally you know something is wrong. How can someone recognize that they're drifting when their life still looks okay from the outside?

5:02 SPEAKER_00: So that's a really good question. A lot of things in regards to this is you might have some things functioning, but you know there's things you're pushing off. You're saying, I'm gonna start working out next week. Hey, I know I need to start looking for other jobs, but I haven't yet. You're using escapism, whether it's entertainment, substances, distractions, to avoid that voice that's nagging and saying you really need to tackle this. That's usually the big sign, is when you're using escapism to avoid things that could expand the quality of your life.

5:32 SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow. Thank you for unpacking that. So, Alex, you use this phrase, the next honest action. And I want to unpack that. What exactly makes an action honest? And how is that different from simply doing more things?

5:48 SPEAKER_00: So that's a really good question. Uh, the big piece with that would be that going back to that voice, that part that we know we're procrastinating or you know, avoiding doing something, something we don't really want to address would be the difference between a distraction, just doing things, or the next honest action. If somebody, you know, knows that they have a drinking problem, it's looking up an AA meeting and finding where they are. That might be much easier than getting yourself actually to the meeting, but knowing where they are is an honest step toward in that progress.

6:16 SPEAKER_00: So if it's something being used to consume your time to tell yourself, well, I can't work on this because I have all these other things going on, that's just being busy. If it's a small step or a large step, I always prefer start small towards, hey, this is a problem and I'm finally addressing it. That's an honest action.

6:33 SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that. Thank you for clarifying that. So, because here's where I think it gets really interesting. Sometimes the problem isn't that we don't know what to do, the problem is that we know exactly what we need to do. And sometimes something inside of us says, not yet. And that's where anxiety enters this conversation. So I want to talk about avoidance with you. Um, why does anxiety make this thing we're avoiding feel bigger? Because someone might look at a person and say, just make the phone call.

7:05 SPEAKER_01: Just go to the gym, just finish the project. But internally, the person's nervous system may be experiencing that action very differently. What's happening psychologically when the thing we need to do starts feeling enormous?

7:19 SPEAKER_00: They're taking on the whole mountain at once. They're trying to look, they're looking from the bottom of the mountain all the way at the top and going, there's no way I can climb this thing. Whereas that's the wrong mindset. They're overwhelming their nervous system with the entire task, every step, where they don't know what to do, how this might go poorly, how the look to others is a big one that stops people. When in reality, you can't what's uh the saying I heard? How do you eat an elephant one bite at a time?

7:44 SPEAKER_00: But they're trying, they're looking at this like I there's no way I can eat all of this. Yeah.

7:49 SPEAKER_01: Oh wow. And I I do, I have to agree. I think you know, we we see the like the end goal, and it's like this is you know the thing that I need to accomplish, but then we don't really educate ourselves on the small little things to to get us there. We just want that big obstacle thing at the end. Um, and we do, we overwhelm ourselves um because we a lot of times don't really know what to really do to get there. We just see the thing because somebody might be there.

8:17 SPEAKER_00: Um there's another chunk of this too that just came to my mind is the fear of the unknown is another big part of this. Um, whether it's, you know, somebody that's relied on a substance to keep them going or is afraid of putting themselves out there, trying something new, doesn't want to look foolish, the fear of the unknown leaves people in spots where they're more willing to accept an uncomfortable known struggle over the chances that things could be better by stepping out into that unknown.

8:44 SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, I completely agree with that as well. So, Alex, you talk about the short-term relief that avoidance provides. Um, can you explain that loop for us? Because I think this is where people can finally understand their own behavior. Something makes them uncomfortable, just like you just said, they avoid it. They immediately feel better. So their brain learns avoidance equals relief. Then the cycle repeats. Can you kind of walk us through that?

9:09 SPEAKER_00: Absolutely. So, what ends up happening a lot of the times is our the parts of our brain that are seeking pleasure or things that are enjoyable hijack the system and keep us smaller than we really could be. Um, binging a show versus going to the gym seems easier. So we're getting dopamine. So much of our society is built upon instant gratification. So we feed those receptors and we end up feeling more hollow. I don't know if this is the actual science behind it, but I think of like those sugar substitutes.

9:37 SPEAKER_00: Your brain initially goes, Oh great, I have sugar, and then it goes, wait a second, no, I don't. So what does it do? It does it craves more of those, and you kind of create a vicious cycle. A lot of the times we end up in spots where we are training ourselves to when something feels difficult, escape, find relief versus what happens when I confront that and the short-term relief costs people their long-term goals.

9:59 SPEAKER_01: Oh, and I completely agree. I completely agree with that. Um, so I want to kind of do a follow-up on that. So, does the relief actually solve anything, or does it simply teach the brain to avoid the discomfort again?

10:11 SPEAKER_00: I think it teaches the brain to disvoy, uh, to keep avoiding and to, you know, avoid the discomfort. I think that a big piece of life is learning that discomfort isn't necessarily bad. It absolutely can be, but that shouldn't be the signal as this is hard means I should stop. Everything that's built is built through challenging the self.

10:30 SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes. And I I completely agree. I think, you know, taking that leap of faith sometimes of really not knowing actually opens the door for so many other things that are actually beautiful on the other side. And I can personally attest to that with my journey in the Warriors Haven podcast. So, Alex, let's make this painfully practical. You mentioned examples like late night scrolling, avoiding the gym bag, delaying an important conversation, ignoring your health, numbing grief, or waiting until you feel ready.

11:00 SPEAKER_01: What are some of the everyday forms of avoidance that people don't even recognize as avoidance?

11:06 SPEAKER_00: Oh, it starts when they first wake up. How many people, I know myself, I'm still guilty of it sometimes, wake up and immediately go on their phone versus getting ready starting the day. Uh, it's small things like that. It's finding those five minutes where I could knock out a task and choosing to instead, you know, with the short form content, you know, indulge in those types of things. It's I could send the email now, but I'm just gonna wait another day. So it appears throughout multiple times.

11:32 SPEAKER_00: It's whenever we have the choice of I could either do this or I could delay it. Whenever we find ourselves with that, uh, how many people start their day and as soon as their alarm goes off, they don't get out of bed, they hit snooze.

11:44 SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, yes, yes. See that quite a bit. Okay, so um let me ask you, what about the person who says, I'm not avoiding it, I'm just overwhelmed? How do we distinguish genuine overwhelm from avoidance? Because I want this conversation um to not turn into we're just making excuses. Um, that's that's not where we're going. So, how can somebody kind of distinguish that that genuine, I'm just overwhelmed?

12:13 SPEAKER_00: So, again, another great question. The big piece is what are the things that are overwhelming you? Are there things we can do to take steps? There's a kindness with yourself too. You know, if you have a crisis going on, it's not the time to start a new habit or a thing. When I'm working with clients, uh, they'll be, you know, we'll have a plan to be working on something, and all of a sudden, you know, big fires coming up, and it's like, they're like, but what about the homework? I'm like, that'll go next week or in two weeks from now.

12:38 SPEAKER_00: Let's deal with this stressor. So if you're in a crisis or a major thing, it's getting yourself through that. Um, the big piece is how do you talk to yourself? It's being honest with yourself. Am I really busy or do I really have something going on? It's positive self-talk in regards to being honest with yourself. Hey, I'm looking for things to fill my schedule. Hey, this is a big thing that's going on right now. It might not be the best time to start this. Great. And then figuring out once you're able to either time when this difficult thing will be over or have a general idea what will be the next step that you take towards this piece you're avoiding.

13:13 SPEAKER_00: Maybe you had a crazy day at work and a lot of things became unexpected. I'm gonna send the email this Monday then. That's fine. That makes total sense.

13:22 SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I think this um is something pretty big that I want to bring that's incredibly important. Is we live in a world where people can consume endless information about themselves, podcasts, um, me, books, therapy, social media, self-development, neuroscience, trauma education, and we can become incredibly knowledgeable about why we behave the way that we do, and yet we can still behave exactly the same way. So, Alex, why doesn't understanding a pattern automatically change the pattern?

13:55 SPEAKER_01: Why can someone have incredible insight and still continue doing the same thing they know is hurting them?

14:02 SPEAKER_00: So I like to say a lot of the times, and I'm gonna mime what I do when I'm in session with people, but there's a difference between logically understanding something up here and experiencing it and feeling it here. So for a lot of people, they can comprehend something, but they don't have the lived experience or lived evidence of, oh wow, I actually can do this. That type of evidence, uh, when you gather something that through an action you did, it contradicts a previous uh interpretation of how reality works, how you yourself are, who yourself are, uh, who you are as an individual.

14:31 SPEAKER_00: And those types of that type of knowledge through experience felt, gone through the challenge, seen that you're capable, is very different than logically comprehending things. Uh, all those things you brought up, it's definitely a part, you know, you do need insight. It just can't be the whole picture because um, you know, unless the boots hit the ground and actually do the work, we don't actually have all that other uh evidence that we can gather through experience and knowledge through experience.

14:57 SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you for that. And I do agree with that as well. I think there's a lot, you know, especially just using my podcast for an example, there's so much information that is there for you to just become a better version of yourself. And yet we still find ourselves repeating those same patterns, even though practical tools are a part of the episode, and and so many other, you know, experts like you coming on and explaining things. So I appreciate you kind of diving into that a little bit more for our friends all over the world.

15:23 SPEAKER_01: Um, and I want to ask you this. Let's say somebody's listening right now realizes, oh wow, I've been calling it procrastination, but I'm actually avoiding something. What's the next question that they should ask themselves?

15:36 SPEAKER_00: Uh, the next question should be, what is it I'm avoiding? And then why am I avoiding it? And then the follow-up question should be, what's the smallest step I feel I could do? Um, I always tell my clients, if this step's too big, divide it in half. If it's still a bit too big, divide it in half. I once had an individual I worked with that was having major anxiety going to work. He was great when he got to work, but going to work was a problem. So we literally broke it down to get up from the bed, take your left foot out, take your right foot out, and step by step with all of these things until he got to work and put on his uniform.

16:09 SPEAKER_00: Then the anxiety went away. But but instead of overwhelming himself with the whole morning, he was able to do it. And he did it enough that that no, he had gathered enough evidence that he was capable of it. So first, um, you know, would be the identifying it piece, then, you know, understanding why you're avoiding it, and then what's the smallest honest step you can take towards this? And then to add to that, praise yourself after you take that step. I think a lot of times people only want to pat themselves on the back when they complete the whole goal.

16:38 SPEAKER_00: When you really need those pats is when you're in the middle of the climb.

16:41 SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that. And thank you for that reminder. That was very important and an important piece. I hope our friends listening kind of go back and listen to that again. And it's, you know, honestly giving yourself that credit as you complete these small milestones, because those are really important as well. And it to somebody else, it might not feel as big or significant, but to you it is, and so you should celebrate that. Um, now, Alex, I want to get a little personal because one of the most powerful pieces of your story is surprisingly simple.

17:10 SPEAKER_01: You talk about making your bed. Um, and not because making your bed magically fixes your life, but because during a difficult period, it became one piece that was small evidence enough for you that you could still act. And that's a very different way of looking at a small habit. So, can you take us into that moment? What did making your bed represent to you at that point in your life?

17:34 SPEAKER_00: So this was back in 2018 where kind of we started talking about stuff. Uh, I remember just feeling like I don't know how I got here with my life and not knowing what to do. Um, I then, you know, went to my dad and said, like the same way I would when I was in high school, hey dad, I screwed up. What do I do? And instead of him telling me to do all of this stuff and how to get myself out of it, he said, Look, I've already told you what to do. It's up to you whether you're gonna follow it or not. And the thing that popped out of my mind was him telling me all the time to make my bed.

18:06 SPEAKER_00: So I just started there. And it was the first piece of evidence of, hey, this small piece of your world is in order. While everything outside of this, you know, your childhood bedroom is totally chaotic. You have a made bed now. And there was a satisfaction when I looked at it. Um, I could look at this one spot when I would go upstairs in my parents' house, and I could see this was in order. And eventually it became well, this looks nice, but there's clothes on the floor. Then there's paperwork is a mess in my drawing.

18:35 SPEAKER_00: Bit by bit, it just became bringing order to an expanding capacity of the self.

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18:41 SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow, I love that. And it's it's so wild because obviously, with my military background and a former drill sergeant, I'm like, you make your bed. That's the first thing, and it's the first sense of accomplishment, and it sets the tone for the rest of the day. Um, so my uh, you know, soon-to-be 11-year-old is making his bed. And I know he doesn't really fully understand the whole concept behind it, but hopefully one day he'll be like, Thanks, mom, for making me make my bed. Um, so Alex, you describe these small actions almost like evidence.

19:08 SPEAKER_01: Evidence that I can still do something. How does completing a small action begin rebuilding self-trust?

19:16 SPEAKER_00: So it's that you follow through with it. Um, these small actions, you say you're gonna do them, you put them on your to-do list and you do them.

(Cont.) 068: Avoidance, Anxiety, and the Structure of Drift

19:23 SPEAKER_00: Over time, you become accountable to yourself and you trust your word again. It becomes, well, of course I'm gonna do this. Why? Because he you log them in a dated book because here's you know, 50 to 100 days of me following through and doing all of this. Yeah. So the more you follow through with things, the more you trust yourself, the more you feel you can rely on yourself, and also the more you're willing to take that next step. And then I always tell my clients too, when you're climbing this, you know, metaphorical mountain with these things, you don't always don't always look up.

19:53 SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you need to look down. And I have clients when they do these to-do lists, I tell them to date them and log them so that they can reflect back because there will be moments where you doubt yourself. But you'll see that list that started with just make the bed, became make the bed, go for a walk, you know, call such and such, or you know, eventually apply for a job, whatever it may be. You'll see over time that it grows. And once you see, wait a second, if I was here now, but 50 days ago I was there, I wonder where I'll be in another 50 days.

20:22 SPEAKER_00: And that's where that self-trust comes in, just through the gathered evidence that you compile over time.

20:27 SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that. I love that. Thank you for giving that practical um imagination too for our friends listening all over the world that may just have us on audio. Um, so now if someone listening feels completely overwhelmed, and I want to kind of go back to this again, and they're like just completely overwhelmed right now, what would you tell them to stop trying to fix everything? Was that would be something that you would tell them? Um, and instead, what's the smallest action that they can complete today that would give them evidence that they can still move?

20:57 SPEAKER_00: That's honestly a perfect answer there. The only thing I might add is if you're in crisis, go seek help. But if you're not at that, and it's just the small exactly what you said was a perfect answer. What's the smallest thing you can move and then just move it? Be proud of yourself that you did that. Then do it again tomorrow. And over time, you'll see that positive feeling you allowed yourself to feel for doing that small thing. It won't feel as positive, but not in a bad way. It'll be like your that inner voice will be saying, I think I can do a little bit more, and then a little bit more, and then a little bit more.

21:27 SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'm sure you saw this with recruits that couldn't believe things that you, you know, got them to a point where they were like, Wow, I'm actually doing all of this. And you're like, Yes, bit by bit you got there.

21:37 SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes. And it's it's very true. It's you know, one of the most humbling things is, you know, when our trainees coming in in week zero and cannot do not one proper push up, and then we're getting ready to cross the stage and graduate, and they're knocking them out like you know, it's like it's nothing. And it's, you know, now they have, like you just said, that built in um experience and evidence of like, this is how I started. And then it adds to. Story. So then it just makes it that much more special.

22:03 SPEAKER_01: And talking about stories, there's another story that I want to pull out because I think it connects beautifully with the Warriors Haven philosophy. And you described, like you said, being overweight, struggling through lunges at the gym with your brother, as a matter of fact, and wanting to leave. And later your brother told you, it is good that you stayed, even though you wanted to leave. And you say that that line stayed with you. Why did that sentence matter so much?

22:32 SPEAKER_00: Because, first of all, my brother barely talks. He's very much like an introvert that keeps to himself, but he wasn't judging me over how I felt. It wasn't about what was going on and all of where I was at with my life. It's what I did in that moment that mattered. Instead of everything and kind of holding the hole of how I got to be so heavy, how I was struggling, how, you know, five, 10 years ago this would have been a piece of cake for me. He simply focused on one small moment and what that did for me.

23:00 SPEAKER_00: Um he then also introduced me to Teddy Roosevelt's uh poem, The Man in the Arena, which is my absolute favorite poem because it's all about. It's not about what other people think, it's about what you're trying to do that matters.

23:12 SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that. Oh, thank you so much for that. Um, so there's the difference between I stayed because I felt motivated and I stayed even though I wanted to leave. What did that teach you about effort?

23:26 SPEAKER_00: That's really where that piece about not just choosing comfort came into the picture. And, you know, the idea really that the fact that you're doing it is what matters. Um, there's a prize on the other side of that effort, and it's not really all about just 100% success. It's that you showed up. And I think for so many of us, we psych ourselves out with I'm not going to be any good at it. And the idea really needs to be well, yeah, you're not gonna be good at it when you start, but you'll get better if you keep going.

23:55 SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes. And I see that a lot with my my friends in the business space. Um, you know, we start and we have, I know for me, speaking from experience, not a clue. Um, but you just keep going and it does. It actually does get a little bit better over time. Um, you have to go through those trials and tribulations. So, Alex, I want to ask you do you think physical action can sometimes help people get out of psychological paralysis? Um, not because exercise magically cures anxiety or depression, but because movement can interrupt the patterns of sitting inside your thoughts?

24:31 SPEAKER_00: Yes, 100%. I uh think that exercise is one of the best things we can do for our mental health. And in particular, it helps us feel capable. It helps us feel strong. If we feel capable and strong with our physical bodies, it helps us feel sometimes mentally strong. It's one of the reasons I love rucking. Rocking, because I just have the weight on my back, it pulls me out of my head. It's such an effective exercise for that. So uh yeah, I 100% agree with that. And I think it's powerful.

24:58 SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love it. I love it. All right, so this is something I really want people to hear. We're not saying, friends, that if you're struggling, just go work out. Okay. We're saying something more nuanced. Sometimes the body can become a doorway back into action. Sometimes thinking about change isn't enough. Sometimes you have to practice change. So, Alec, this is one of my absolute favorite topics to talk about, and it's discipline. Because the word discipline can trigger very different reactions.

25:31 SPEAKER_01: Some people hear discipline and think I need to beat myself into submission, I need to be harder on myself, I need to stop being weak. But that's not how we're describing it. You describe discipline as a structure, support, direction, and reducing negotiation. Can you explain that?

25:49 SPEAKER_00: Absolutely. I think discipline is what you do regularly. You know, um, when people say that about what you just brought up about beating being hard on themselves and, you know, beating up on themselves, I'm like, well, if that worked, why isn't it worked yet? So I think that that's the total wrong interpretation of it. Discipline is building the structures of what you want to do and what you normalize that you do. That's one of the reasons make your bed is part of my story. It's part of my first homework assignments for clients because it starts a pattern.

26:16 SPEAKER_00: Discipline is training yourself that when that part of your brain says, I don't want to, oh, that means I have to. And it takes things along those lines. And as far as structure goes, um, it becomes a part of your day, how you organize your day, how your mind expects your day to flow. Um, so it's all of those pieces. Um, you can go further with it too. I know the mornings where I do my F3 workouts, uh, I work late some nights, and then I gotta be up at five to get to the workout at 5:15, which I I don't, that's probably still not too late for you.

26:46 SPEAKER_00: Uh, but um I all my clothes are out, my water bottle's full, everything my shoes are out. Why? Because why would I set up a situation that I have to argue with myself versus everything's already there? The only thing you have to push yourself to do is to get out of bed. So it's setting up things to make it easier for you to follow through with what it is you say you want to do and be who it is you want to be.

27:06 SPEAKER_01: I love that. And that's something I I also talk about as well throughout the the podcast is you know, setting up the environment to where you don't think, you know, it's just you just do. Um because it's already there. The clothes are laid out, you have your meal prep ready if you're able to do that, you know, and you literally grab and go. And so, and the brain honestly really truly loves that because it's the less that it has to think. So it loves the next thing, you know what I mean? Um, so Alex, can you tell us what the difference between discipline that supports you and discipline that punishes you?

27:42 SPEAKER_01: What is the difference there?

27:44 SPEAKER_00: Absolutely. It's really the way in which you talk to yourself and you react to yourself. Are you telling yourself, because I ate this, I now need to go run five miles. That's beating up on yourself, and that doesn't create long-term results. Um, I break it down. Uh, I actually have a worksheet on my website of this. It's using the carrot versus the stick to motivate yourself. The horse needs to move to get the carrot, but he'll trot along and eventually gets a carrot versus you can get a horse to move a lot faster for a short period of time by hitting you with a stick until the horse throws you off and bites you and kicks you into the ground because you beat on him too much.

28:18 SPEAKER_00: It's the same thing for ourselves. If you're using discipline to beat up on yourself, you might move quick out of the gate, but eventually you're gonna cease and stop versus those words of encouragement, those small steps, praises, be speaking kindly. Hey, I'm afraid. Hey, it's all right that you're afraid. We're gonna just take this step. You know, that's using the character motivates up oneself to build these habits.

28:38 SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that. I love that. We're gonna circle back to that towards the end so you know, friends can be able to get that uh worksheet as well on on your website. So um, let's say someone keeps breaking promises to themselves. They say, Tomorrow I'll start. Tomorrow comes. They don't, then they beat themselves up, and then they promise again. How do they break that cycle swinging um from the opposite extreme and then becoming completely passive?

29:06 SPEAKER_00: So the big thing there was trying to understand why did you break that promise to yourself? Because we all have our own things going on in our lives, we all have certain things, and trying to understand what it was. Did the task seem too large? Did you have too much to do that day? And then it's looking at that information and making decisions. Maybe deciding I wanted to start working out in the gym and going five days a week was too much. Well, let me lower the bar, let me put the bar on the floor.

29:31 SPEAKER_00: What seems genuinely realistic? Not what's ideal, what seems realistic? And then taking that small step and then praising the self for that small step. If you get interrupted, you know, nobody has perfect progress, growth isn't linear, but okay, how do I get back to it? What's that small step again? And then starting small again. Really trying to investigate. You should be exploring yourself and the patterns, thinking about why it is you act the way you do, instead of just beating up on yourself or creating a narrative.

29:58 SPEAKER_00: Start asking questions and start to look at the environment, look at how you conduct your days, look at how what you prioritize and try to figure out what would make sense for you. And then what's the smallest possible step?

30:10 SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that. I love that. All right, there's a phrase that I think keeps people stuck, and it is, I'm just waiting until I feel ready. But sometimes readiness never comes. So, Alex, what would you tell someone who is waiting to feel motivated, confident, healed, or ready before taking action?

30:33 SPEAKER_00: Um, I would say I think you have it mixed up. I think that when you start taking action, start doing the things that you will feel more ready. Um, what's the old saying? The best time to plant a tree was 30 years ago, the next best time is right now, and kind of playing with that mindset. You don't have to wait for the stars to align. Yes, if you're in a crisis, give yourself a break until that's over. But you'll learn and you'll grow faster through acting than waiting for the perfect time to act.

31:00 SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that. All right. So I want to transition us here. And I there's something that I do want to talk to you about that happens after people start changing. They make progress, they get motivated, they create a routine, they feel good. And then life happens. Stress, relationships, work, family, distractions, old habits. And suddenly they're back where they started. You learned about boundaries as a young therapist after realizing that being constantly available wasn't the same thing as being truly effective or healthy.

31:35 SPEAKER_01: What did that realization teach you?

31:38 SPEAKER_00: Um, that if I actually want to be more effective, I need to have some borders and boundaries for me. So I think there's a particular story. Um, I was at a spa day actually after working a whole bunch of hours, and I'm like, great, I'm gonna relax, I'm gonna go in the sauna, I'm gonna, you know, hit up the hot tub. This is gonna be great. And I don't know why, but somebody started talking to me about their relationship problems, and I'm supposed to be in relaxation mode, and I immediately put myself back in therapist mode.

32:02 SPEAKER_00: And knowing that I had a very busy schedule and I'd taken this time for relaxation and the impact it had not only on me, but my interactions with others, my clients, my you know, partners, um, my friends, all of that, and realizing if I don't put these borders and boundaries in place, not only do I suffer, but other people suffer too.

32:22 SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow. Okay, so I want to I want to kind of follow up on that. How how important are boundaries when you're trying to change your life? Not just boundaries with people, but boundaries around like your time, your attention, your environment, your phone, your habits, your energy. Can someone actually create a life where the right behavior becomes easier because the environment supports it?

32:46 SPEAKER_00: Oh, 100%. I uh very much I like to say everybody needs structure, the type of structure and how you organize your structure. That's based off of who you are as an individual, but I do think we all benefit from structure. Um, putting these pieces in place, designing the environment, uh, it just makes everything run more smoothly for yourself. And it also stops turning all of these things into a negotiation. No, it's 10 to 11, that's when I work out. It's, you know, I, you know, it's three o'clock, that's when I pick the kids up.

33:15 SPEAKER_00: Now it's not our mind isn't arguing with time with all this stuff. Uh, I want to eat late at night, I'm trying to break that habit. You have dinner at seven, that's it. That's it for the day. You're done eating at that point. So the more you add structure and put these pieces in place, the less negotiating you have to do with yourself or with others. It just simplifies the piece. And just like you were saying earlier, the brain likes simple.

33:36 SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, it really does. Um now, this is something I think everybody needs to hear because eventually you're going to slip. You're gonna miss the workout, you're going to scroll too long, you're going to avoid the conversation, you're going to have a bad day. You're going to fall back into an old pattern. So, Alex, why is it so important to return quickly instead of turning one miss action into a full retreat?

34:01 SPEAKER_00: Because if uh the quicker you get back to it, the sooner you're going to reestablish those habits and patterns you've already been building versus letting them atrophy. Um, the most commonplace I see this is honestly, if people are exposed to a uh something sphereful a lot of the times, you know, just to go into more of some psychotherapy stuff. Um, if you got scared by a dog, one of the best things you could probably do for your mind is in a safe setting go and pet another dog immediately. Otherwise, if your brain starts to stigmatize it.

34:31 SPEAKER_00: And if you fall out of a habit long enough, your brain starts to stigmatize yourself, the behavior surrounding it. So the quicker you're able to jump back into it, the less ground your brain needs to pick up to destigmatize the behavior or the self for not following through with the behavior. And also, you're just going to get those habits and patterns going again quickly.

34:51 SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that. Thank you for that. And I want you to kind of explain this difference for all of our friends listening all over the world. I failed and I slipped. Why does that language matter?

35:03 SPEAKER_00: So the slip is just a setback. A failure is, I mean, failure to me, even is not, it's just part of the process of growth. But um, the idea of ways in which people use failure is there's no point in trying anymore. It's over. Failure is only when you give up. Um, a slip is a setback. Setbacks happen for all different types of reasons. Things under our control, things beyond our control. And to let a setback stop you on your journey, you know, I'd say if everything just went perfectly, that's a pretty boring story.

35:33 SPEAKER_00: Those setbacks add some narrative twist to the the life you're building.

35:38 SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes. And I completely agree. I feel like, you know, it adds, you know, the the flavor uh to our to our lives. And we we need that. So there's one distinction in your notes that I really want to make sure we don't lose. You said responsibility is not blame, discipline is not punishment, action is not emotional bypassing. I think that this honestly could be the heart of our entire conversation today. Can you explain that distinction? Because someone listening might they might honestly hear, take responsibility and immediately think, so everything is my fault.

36:13 SPEAKER_01: And that's not what we're saying. Can you explain what you are saying?

36:18 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. So in particular, with that responsibility piece, it's more so an understanding of how you might have gotten to a certain place. You know, you were not at fault for the things that happened to you. You may not have had the right tools or the best experience or situation. And this isn't to blame or put everything on your shoulders. It's to be understanding, it's to soothe the self, to be kind to the self, to understand that this wasn't fair, but also to understand you're still the person that's that writing the narrative of your life.

36:49 SPEAKER_00: And you can have all the support and uh from other individuals, but you still have to be the main protagonist of your story and take those steps. Um, people can have really crummy parents that don't do a good job, but if you want to have a happy life, blaming your parents isn't going to bring about a happy life. It's going to be the things you do. You can understand how and what caused, and that might be why you have particular predispositions, but it's still up to you to build the life you want for yourself.

37:15 SPEAKER_01: I love that. Thank you for that and for bringing that to the surface for our friends. I think someone needed to hear that. Um, all right, Alex, how do we balance personal responsibility with the reality that anxiety, grief, trauma, depression, and overwhelm are real? Because sometimes people genuinely need therapy. Sometimes they need medical care, sometimes they need rest, sometimes they need community. How can we encourage action without minimizing what someone is experiencing?

37:43 SPEAKER_00: So that's a great question. I think it comes down to, you know, again, the whole action piece in general. Play around, try some of these things yourself. If it's not working, go up a level of care. If that's not working, go up a level of care. Uh, you know, you think that just talking to a therapist might help that? Well, see what the results are. Maybe it does help. Maybe it helps you in one way, but you say, you know what, that social need of mine still isn't being met. I need to find these community pieces.

38:09 SPEAKER_00: Don't expect that you have to have the perfect answer where you're standing right now. Instead, be an explorer, explore the territory, check with these things, check to see, you know, ask for others' opinions on matters, you know. Ask a professional, do you think that this might be helpful for me? They'd be happy to assist you with that. But really just play around with the information, play around with these ideas and see where you go with them. Understand the anxieties, try one step in this direction.

38:35 SPEAKER_00: If it doesn't work, that's not failure. That just means we're going to try something different.

38:39 SPEAKER_01: I love that. And I do, I tell a lot of my friends all over the spaces, you know, there's no such thing as failure. It's all just feedback. So you just got to take it and then, you know, dissect it and then go and do the next thing. Um, really quick, when does push yourself become unhealthy? And when does give yourself grace become another excuse to avoid action?

39:02 SPEAKER_00: So another great question. Yeah, you do have some good hammer throwing questions. These are some good digs. I love it. Um, I think it differs for everyone, but it's really the dialogue you're going with. Um, I truly believe um, this is more like from a Carl Rogers or Person Centered. I think that we do know when we're being honest with ourselves and when uh we're lying to ourselves. So I think it's really listening to that voice. I think you know when, hey, I do need a rest day, or hey, it has been a lot.

39:30 SPEAKER_00: And I also know, think you know, all right, I'm milking this a little bit. So it's really trusting and being honest with yourself about these situations. If you're having trouble trusting yourself, it's developing that capacity, it's checking with other individuals and not just the people that are going to tell you what you want to hear. Go to someone that's gonna tell you the truth, even if you don't want to hear it. Those are, in my opinion, some of the most valuable people to have in one's life.

39:54 SPEAKER_01: I completely, completely agree. Um, it's so important to have those checks and balances. You know, at the end of the day, we are going to determine what we want to do, what we want to implement, the outcomes that we want, but having those checks and balances with the people in your life that are going to tell you what you don't want to hear in those moments are very important. So, Alex, I want to do something with you. I want to give the audience a simple audit. I want you to imagine somebody sitting alone tonight.

40:21 SPEAKER_01: They're listening to this episode and thinking, he's talking to me. They know that they've been drifting. Maybe it's their health, maybe it's their career, maybe it's their marriage, maybe it's their parenting, maybe it's grief, maybe it's something they've never told anybody, maybe they've simply lost connection with themselves. What's the first question you would ask them?

40:43 SPEAKER_00: So the first question I would ask them is what do you think's going on or what's going on in your mind? And really to sit there and think about it. Why did this episode hit such a chord with you? And then start pulling at those threads to start seeing what's happening here. And if you're possible, start writing stuff down. Um, it's easier for us to lose information when we keep it in our mind, but start pulling at why did that hit such a nerve with me? Uh, when I do some Jungian shadow work with people, I'll look for those moments where something's charged that they respond to either in themselves or another person, and that's a thread to pull at, to be like, why does this have so much energy?

41:22 SPEAKER_00: So, what part of this episode made you feel that this is you? What part of this episode raised those emotions? What part of those episodes made you sink in your chair, feeling like, oh, the spotlight's on me? And then explore that a little bit. Start asking yourself some questions, you know, find someone a confidant that you feel comfortable with and start talking to them a bit about it and use that information to start developing, you know, a potential approach to dealing with these things. Sometimes it's just that small moment where something hits you and you go, Yeah, this needs to be worked on.

41:51 SPEAKER_00: And that's the beginning of a you know, whole new you.

41:55 SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that. I love that. So, out of what you just shared with all of our friends all over the world that are listening, what would be the one assignment after this episode that you would give them?

42:08 SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's always just uh be cliche, it's to make your bed. But to do something a little bit more on that, it's uh what's something you're avoiding? What's something that you know you should be doing? And then what is the smallest possible step you could take towards solving that or working on that? And then how did you feel if you gave your if you then allow yourself to feel good that you took that step? And how do you feel taking that step and feeling good through the action you took versus letting it just sit in the back of your mind and avoiding it with a distraction?

42:44 SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that. I love that. I hope, friends, you rewind and listen to that and go ahead and do that assignment tonight. All right, Alex, I want to close with this. You've lived through your own rebuilding, you've watched people wrestle with anxiety, avoidance, identity, responsibility, and change. You've built a clinical practice, you've continued training, you've navigated family, clients, business, and responsibility. And you're also working on a book and a workbook centered around confronting avoidance, personal development, understanding the self, and moving toward change.

43:17 SPEAKER_01: So I want to give you the microphone for a minute, because like I said a little earlier in the episode, we were gonna come back to it. So can you kind of dive into that just a bit for us?

43:25 SPEAKER_00: Absolutely. So uh the book is actually being published. Uh, so I don't have a date yet, but it will be coming out. Uh, I'll let everybody know in the future uh as we get closer. But it did, I just signed a contract actually earlier this month. Uh the book is gonna be titled Quit of Aiding, uh, a field therapist's manual for men in particular, although there's material for everyone in there. Um I will keep people updated. My Instagram and website uh will have updates with information on it. Uh, the book's gonna walk you through understanding that you're drifting all the way to not only building the strength and capacity.

44:00 SPEAKER_00: But how building these strengths and capacity goes beyond just the self, and how it's about how you better help not only yourself, but your friends, your family, your community, and really just bringing out the fact that you built these strengths within yourself, which I'm gonna walk you chapter by chapter to helping you develop yourself to an individual that not only takes better care of himself, but because they're stronger, they can care for others more as well.

44:24 SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that. And so we have friends um all over the world that are listening. Can you drop the social handle and the website for our friends that may be driving or working out right now to that get in contact with you?

44:36 SPEAKER_00: Sure. Uh the website is alexanderosterman.com and the Instagram handle is at Alexander Osterman.

44:42 SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that. I'll go ahead and put uh put that also in the show notes as well for our friends. Um and so a final question for you know the person that is listening who knows they're drifting, who knows exactly what they've been avoiding, who feels ashamed that they've allowed it to go on this long, and who's wondering if they can actually change. Mr. Alex, what do you want them to know?

45:05 SPEAKER_00: Uh the biggest thing is you absolutely can change. Um, I tell my story not to make people say, wow, how did he do that? I tell my story because if I spoke to myself eight years ago, I wouldn't believe I could have changed. But I did. Um, the story is here for me to share with people to allow people to know that if I can do it, you can do it as well. So you can do it, but you're not going to do it all at once. You're not going to do it in a year. It's going to be a compounding effect over a long period of time.

45:32 SPEAKER_00: So just take that one small step, be proud of yourself, and then take that next step tomorrow.

45:38 SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love it. Thank you so much for those words. And friends, before we close this episode, I want you to answer one question. Not 10, not 20. One. Where am I evading right now? And then ask yourself, what is one honest action I can take today, not tomorrow, not when you're motivated, not when you're fearless today. Make it small, make it specific, make it real, and then do it. Because the goal isn't to prove that you're suddenly a completely different person. The goal is to give yourself one piece of evidence, like we've said throughout this episode.

46:22 SPEAKER_01: I can still act. And then tomorrow, just like Mr. Alex said, you do it again. Alex, thank you for this conversation. I think what makes this conversation so important is that we didn't reduce anything to try harder. We talked about something much more human. Anxiety is real, grief is real, trauma is real, overwhelm is real. And sometimes people genuinely need professional support, medical care, rest, community, or therapy. But there is also a place where we need to ask ourselves, what do I already know?

46:58 SPEAKER_01: What am I avoiding? And what is the next honest action? Because responsibility isn't blame, discipline isn't punishment, and action isn't pretending that your pain doesn't exist. Action can simply mean I refuse to let fear make every decision for me. If this episode connected with you, don't just listen and move on. Take one thing from this conversation and put it into practice. Make the bed, send the message, put the phone down, take the walk, open the document, make the appointment, have the conversation, set the boundary, ask for help.

47:35 SPEAKER_01: Whatever your next honest action is, take it. And if this episode made you think of someone who's been stuck in a cycle of avoidance or drift, send it to them. Sometimes the right conversation finds us exactly at the right time. This is the Warriors Haven podcast. I'm Jay, your favorite drill sergeant. And remember, you don't have to have the whole path figured out. You just have to be willing to take the next honest step. So, friends, until next time, stay strong, stay focused, stay ready.